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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:15 am 
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Figured I'd get this thread started both to give people something to discuss right now and to help inform us.

Latest crop of shooters - Battlefield 3 and Modern Warefare 3 - what do you like and what do you wish was better or is downright bad?

Anything from how the menus are laid out to artistic choices they made to performance to online play- anything is fair game.

I want to hear what you like and what you don't.

Go!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:39 am 
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Im up late (again), so I figured I'de take a crack at this..
I don't have my copy of BF3 quite yet, I've watched the game with great anticipation for the last few months. I've really loved the game play videos so far. I thought the hand to hand combat was really cool (seen in the 13 minute gameplay trailer) and a refreshing alternative to the usual "press f to melee" stapble in fps games. It really had badass written all over it. I mean, let's face it. Anyone can swing a knife around. I think most shooters really fail to convince you that whoever you are playing as went through some sort of hand to hand combat training. In the video, the soldier essentially performs a disarm of an enemy using a knife I believe. I dont know why movies are full of these things but games dont give you any of this badass..ery. Just imagine if a game allowed you to show people that you didn't forget everything ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hv3a2dFgxo

Another example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laArmgaM3To

It would be very neat if we could still use our weapons even if they ran out of ammo.. I think close quarters combat has played a role in virtually every war.. It's only in the more highly trained branches of the military that it becomes more refined.

I see this playing a much bigger role in singplayer, but it would be nice to see some kind of CQC in MP too. Maybe even some sort of combo system? Location based melee hits?

The building collapsing in the trailer was also pretty amazing also now that I think about it, although I think I recall it being mentioned that destruction is reserved until later.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:15 am 
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I'm hooked on mw3 right now. Haven't even attempted to get BF3, but mw3 gameplay is good except that the registration for shots and what not is just horrid. Also the lack of dedicated servers (i realize there are dedicated servers but no one uses them really) is so damn annoying. I hated it in mw2 and I hate it even more in mw3. But honestly the game is an exact copy of mw2 except some different maps skins etc. The singler player was actually pretty good and I enjoyed it a lot. Also, the "special forces" addition with missions and survival mode is very addicting. My friend and I had a little competition to see who could get the fastest times on the breach course and the damnit I"m forgetting the name but the other course with hostages and what not. Well I won...by a few seconds lol. Breach course I did in 24.7 seconds and the other course I did in 20.1 seconds lol. Although the multiplayer lets me down a bit (get a set of killstreaks in TDM and you win more times than not). All in all I only give it a 8.5 out of 10, but still fun to frag kids an listen to them bitch and nag :D

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Thanks guys, keep 'em coming!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:22 pm 
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I'm going to go a different direction here and use Red Orchestra 2:Hero's of Stalingrad. Red Orchestra 1 was all about realism so many people had high hopes for this game, including me! This game started out with about 10,000 players online after its release. Three months later it has around 500 players. This obviously proved that going in the middle between total realism tactical shooter and arcade shooter is NOT a good strategy. Tripwire is a much smaller team than the games you have listed, MW3 and BF3 are both companies that make millions if not billions of dollars!

I'm from the old school where games like Rainbow 6, Ghost Recon, R6:Ravenshield, and Swat 4 gave you options to select your ammo type FMJ or JHP and it actually mattered. We had 3 or more types of realistic body armor (light for fast mobility up to the heavy stuff with a face shield..it slowed ya down, but you could take 9mm rounds all day). People still play these games!! They were created 5-10 years ago. They didn't have respawns, you didn't have a health bar, no kill streak boost...1 bullet to the brain 9mm or .50 cal your dead, you wait until everyone else dies before you play again. I liked these things, it promotes skill and brain usage....somehow a lame run and gun Call of Duty game ruined all this when they made a few million bucks. Everyone just copies what they did hoping to hit the jackpot, yet nothing has come close to those old school games for realism or skill.

Now RO 2: HoS -
Good:

1. When you open the bolt on K98 or Mosin-Nagant the round in the chamber is ejected - live or spent
2. Stripper clips to load the old guns
3. Nagant revolver - you load the rounds in the chamber 1 at a time (happens way too fast in the game)
4. Bullets penetrate things - Cover vs Concealment
5. You give teammates ammo if you have the same caliber...almost everyone carries spare MG ammo
6. 1 shot to the head is almost always quick death, but 1 shot to the gut can be a 30 second long bleed out
7. Suppression effects- When a mg34 is plowing rounds into walls all around you I think its normal for aim to be off a little

Bad: Way too much to list but this is what I can remember

1. When you shoot an arm, leg, hand people bandage in 5 seconds (too fast, but whatever I can deal) the killer for me is they can still sprint full speed, have perfect aim ( No effect of the wound for the rest of the match) Hell 10 year old Rainbow six made me limp once I got hit in the leg.
2. Stats don't show your deaths, only Points, Team points, Kills. ( I thought Kill/Death ratio has been standard for ages)
3. Weapon unlocks and character skill leveling- ( I think all weapons should be available from the start not unlocked from playing the game. Thanks CoD! The skill stats are another thing entirely ...your player gets quicker at reloading, is less prone to suppression, runs faster for longer with experience. I see the realism and I could probably deal with this).
4. Hit boxes ( If your going to make a damn shooting game this should be a high priority of something get right!!!!)
5. Running for a half mile and then having perfect accuracy at 200-300m ( Try it sometime ..let me know how easy it was).
6. Bayonet on a Sniper rifle - It's the level 50 unlock (U joking..does this need an explanation)
7. Hip firing MG34 with good accuracy at 100m ( Once again..I have no problem with mg hipfire I'm sure it happened and have seen video of it, it's the damn accuracy that kills me)
8. Unable to go prone or unable to deploy weapon here ( If I'm going prone somebody is probably shooting at me I don't care if the ground isn't totally flat..put me down where I can go prone then)
9. Spawn campers ( No respawns fixes that...it just seems like the A.D.D kids get their way, why does every game have respawns?)


I could go on and on..but you get my general opinion. Sorry it's so long but you can tell I'm passionate about the good games! It's been quite a while since somebody put time, money, and effort into a game not called Call of Duty or Battlefield.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Im really glad you brought the Red Orchestra series up l3ulldozer because ive always thought that RO1 was a hallmark of an amazing shooter. It was gritty, solid, and had realistic weapons that felt like cannons and were just as lethal. Rainbow Six, the Hostile Intent mod for hl1, and all those games were also fantastic examples.

Graphics wise it was adequate but where it excelled was in the details; the effort required to load in a new stripper clip (they rarely go in like butter :P ), the racheting sound of the bolt, machine gun ballistics, etc. was all supurb. Control wise it was somewhat fumbly (they addressed it but fell short I feel, the animations of moving prone with a weapon just seem off) but key-combo-wise everything worked like it should.

With the new game my first impression was that they rushed it. I went and bought the pre-order package one weekend while home from college wanting to play the Beta THEN AND NOW (as advertised :D) so i spend the change and waited for it, only come to find out the beta comes out only a few days before the actual game. WTF?! and i only learned this by forum browsing. I was livid. That was a big tip off that they were probably releasing too early. Then i learned that all the extra shit they talked about was pointless cause come to find out the shitty class system rarely lets you use what you want.

In my eyes, basically what they did was what you brought up, try to blend Arcade gears of war cover systems, Recon planes, complicated ass maps and systems plus the poorly done damage system with its glitchy bandages/bleeding that l3ulldozer mentioned, while still keeping the good lethality and deadliness of the ww2 battlefield (rifles that can kill at 500+ yards no problem! thats scary as shit! not to mention the ability to shoot through trees and metal. steel core .30-06 will go through a half inch of iron @ 50 yards no problem) yet ultimately dropped the ball. The weapon animations arent as solid and purposeful as they used to be not to mention sometime they dont even work. There isnt even as great a variety of weapons? Where are the m38/44 for the russians or the mp-40 variants? And what the fuck is with the Press Shift Key For Sniper Mode with all the weapons? How the hell does that make any sense???

Is the cover system interesting? yeah meh, i never even really use it half the time. I think that gluing people to walls takes the skill out of using cover properly. That coupled with shoddy bullet penetration (although the AT rifles WILL shoot through damn near any cover, i love it :twisted: ) and often getting shot out of literally nowhere (despite location cam) by invisible peeps (maybe its my contrast/brightness :?: ) and half the time you feel like an expendable piece of cannon fodder on the battlefield. Extensive knowledge of maps is needed so the learning curve is epic without even factoring in the asinine leveling system which all seems arbitrary as fuck.

The tanks are better? I guess? They feel complicated as hell to me now and ive yet to understand them. Armor seems arbitrary as well, tanks can survive upwards of 10 tank round hits all over it yet a 14.5mm tank rifle can penetrate and blow it up. The lack of tank maps as well as the lack of players online you mentioned l3ulldozer disturbs me.

All that being said i think that if the old player community can step up and change things the game really can shine. I play the hell out of it and its great fun once you get into the zone and know what all is going on :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:55 pm 
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The thing though is that if bullet penetration was completely 100% authentic and you give players the option to choose any caliber they want, there is nothing that could provide cover. Even standard 5.56x45 ball will go through two two brick walls. If you use AP, that round would probably be able to take down someone it hit even after passing through those walls. So someone outside can fire off a few rounds, and if they are lucky enough to have someone inside that building. I've heard that 7.62 armor piercing will punch through around around 1/2 steel. Concrete would do a good job of slowing down some of the smaller rounds Im guessing though.

That's a pretty big challenge, but there are other, bigger rounds like the .45 - 70 which would be even harder to stop. From what I can see, it was mainly used in the latter half of the 19th century and it remains to be seen whether alliance will let you reach out that far. Even if it doesn't you still have the kits like the beowulf that allow an ar-15 to fire huge rounds like the .458 socom.

At some point, you're just going to have to start putting blast walls around the level, because even if you have level 4 body armor, a lot of these rounds would easily knock you off your feet. Don't get me wrong, I think this would make for an interesting feature, what you having to recover your weapon, but it would make it hard to find some sort of cover.

This video was very interesting.. Kind of showed bullet penetration in games in a whole new light
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSebnSQdJ2k

When it comes to steel, not all types are equal though and i hope this makes it into the game in some way or another even though it is relatively minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqTZAzUj1PQ

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:46 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
The thing though is that if bullet penetration was completely 100% authentic and you give players the option to choose any caliber they want, there is nothing that could provide cover. Even standard 5.56x45 ball will go through two two brick walls. If you use AP, that round would probably be able to take down someone it hit even after passing through those walls. So someone outside can fire off a few rounds, and if they are lucky enough to have someone inside that building. I've heard that 7.62 armor piercing will punch through around around 1/2 steel. Concrete would do a good job of slowing down some of the smaller rounds Im guessing though.

That's a pretty big challenge, but there are other, bigger rounds like the .45 - 70 which would be even harder to stop. From what I can see, it was mainly used in the latter half of the 19th century and it remains to be seen whether alliance will let you reach out that far. Even if it doesn't you still have the kits like the beowulf that allow an ar-15 to fire huge rounds like the .458 socom.

At some point, you're just going to have to start putting blast walls around the level, because even if you have level 4 body armor, a lot of these rounds would easily knock you off your feet. Don't get me wrong, I think this would make for an interesting feature, what you having to recover your weapon, but it would make it hard to find some sort of cover.

This video was very interesting.. Kind of showed bullet penetration in games in a whole new light
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSebnSQdJ2k

When it comes to steel, not all types are equal though and i hope this makes it into the game in some way or another even though it is relatively minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqTZAzUj1PQ


you are very, very far off on nearly all your statements.

Here, read this:
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infa ... _ammo.html

:)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:46 am 
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Spiffinz wrote:
#//neostyles.CD wrote:
The thing though is that if bullet penetration was completely 100% authentic and you give players the option to choose any caliber they want, there is nothing that could provide cover. Even standard 5.56x45 ball will go through two two brick walls. If you use AP, that round would probably be able to take down someone it hit even after passing through those walls. So someone outside can fire off a few rounds, and if they are lucky enough to have someone inside that building. I've heard that 7.62 armor piercing will punch through around around 1/2 steel. Concrete would do a good job of slowing down some of the smaller rounds Im guessing though.

That's a pretty big challenge, but there are other, bigger rounds like the .45 - 70 which would be even harder to stop. From what I can see, it was mainly used in the latter half of the 19th century and it remains to be seen whether alliance will let you reach out that far. Even if it doesn't you still have the kits like the beowulf that allow an ar-15 to fire huge rounds like the .458 socom.

At some point, you're just going to have to start putting blast walls around the level, because even if you have level 4 body armor, a lot of these rounds would easily knock you off your feet. Don't get me wrong, I think this would make for an interesting feature, what you having to recover your weapon, but it would make it hard to find some sort of cover.

This video was very interesting.. Kind of showed bullet penetration in games in a whole new light
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSebnSQdJ2k

When it comes to steel, not all types are equal though and i hope this makes it into the game in some way or another even though it is relatively minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqTZAzUj1PQ


you are very, very far off on nearly all your statements.

Here, read this:
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infa ... _ammo.html

:)


+1

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:51 am 
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I think I'll take a stab at the larger picture.

- In terms of PC gaming I sometimes wonder if the people responsible for the pc "ports" of many the releases we see today are even PC gamers. I don't mean that to sound insulting, but rather a nod to how things have changed, and how over last 6 ~ 10 years console gaming has become the focus of development for many teams. So I'm just going to make a big list of likes and dislikes about PC games and PC gaming in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtBCpo0eU
We'll use this to get the ball rolling.

The unskippable barrage of company logos that show up as the game starts.
Now I don't know if this is something forced on us by legal contracts or what, but there has to be some kind of middle ground. Either like DX: Human Revolution which only showed it's big list once, and then only from the options screen - or just simply let players skip through it with button presses. We've already clicked the icon, waited for steam to do it's DRM things, waited for the video to initialize etc etc. You should not be able to get, make, or eat a sandwich in the time it takes from launching the application to the time you can interact with it.

The Options screen.
This is where every PC gamer goes first, and it's where true 1st impressions are made. As a rule of thumb, the more feature rich a game's options screen is - the better the game in general. On a PC everyone's hardware is different, and many people have different preferences. Most like WASD, some prefer the numpad, and other still use odd combinations. - I play with mouse + gamepad for most shooters for example. Mouse for precision aiming, analog stick for precision moving. Some games let you do this like Saints Row 3, Serious Sam 3, and some don't like skyrim which ironically would benefit from it the most.

A good options screen should let players setup their graphic preferences including FOV, and let them mess around with various crap like mip-mapped bunny tesslated partical pizza techno-mumble-jumble if they feel they want to. It's like owning a car (or a gun) , we like knowing that we can pop the hood and have a look, even if we're completely unqualified to do so. It's a guy thing.

DLC
- That would be a rant of its own. Basically I'm in favor of DLC in 2 fashions. Expansion packs that add whole new campaigns, etc etc. Similar to Bethsadia's work on Fallout. New area, quests, items, etc. And the other is what I call free updates. Similar perhaps to Minecraft's approach of constantly adding new stuff to it's game to drive the future sales. Early adopters get in cheap, and as content, popularity and word of mouth grows so to does the cost of purchase reversing the concept of depreciating value in software... or something like that. I think Unreal Tournament did something similar... included map packs with updates which added value and then later additions would be sold as "game of the year" or something like that included.

Then there's all the handholding, and nerfing.
There's this popular notion that if a game is brutal then people won't want to play it. And yet it seems the most popular selling thing on steam is ARMA 2 - which we all know is because of DAYZ. DayZ uses Permadeath! Not just die and respawn, not hide and let your health get back, but full on - you are dead. No givesies backsies.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:09 am 
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Maybe you might find this of interest.
I wrote a review up of Homefront a while back.

https://www.aeterna.nl/forum/showthread ... Home-Front


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:13 pm 
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BF3 is sort of my main shooter at the moment, insofar as anything is (I do not have time for games much anymore).

In theory it's got most of what I want in an FPS. Customisation, an attempt at a ballistics system, depth, breadth, persistence, objective based game modes.

I just don't love it though.

I dunno if it's the flat feeling of the movement and gunplay after BC2 or if it's the horrible map design. Just doesn't really pop for me.

I usually get bored when one of the meat grinder maps comes along which says to me that the basic gameplay of running around and shooting dudes is fundamentally dull.

It needs the sand drifts out of BC2 to discourage camping.

It's actually gone backwards from BC2. Hooow?

Still playing it because, well, what else?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Really cool
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/tpnx ... log-better

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:34 am 
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Fucking. Awesome. As shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_xaIv7Wo1A

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:48 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc15KgfNJsw

Really good. Alot of it is sort of more concerned with bioshock infinite but i think that alot of it (particularly the beginning) is relevant to alliance.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:10 am 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc15KgfNJsw

Really good. Alot of it is sort of more concerned with bioshock infinite but i think that alot of it (particularly the beginning) is relevant to alliance.

I don't see how any of this relates to Alliance, least of all the beginning. The first half of the video covers:

1. NPCs feeling/not feeling as if they live in a vibrant city
2. Vigors/Plasmids
3. Fighting a ghost

The rest of the video mostly just covers time warps, companion characters, and comparisons to Bioshock 1.

Uhh, ???

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:29 am 
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In a general sense, i think it does. Games have often struggled with making places feel lived in as opposed to combat arenas. Creating that sense of a living breathing world is something that few games have achieved. Mafia 2 is a great example here of what games can do. Although it felt eerie, it was amazing. When you got in people's way they would say something like "excuse me" or if you veered a bit too far into on coming traffic you would hear the horns. It was little touches like that which just made things come alive.

Although i realize that the focus is on multiplayer, i think that the same kind of well rings true for multiplayer games too. I mean, if you have a map that is set in i dont know an abandoned part of Chernobyl, i want to feel like someone lived there. Call of duty 4 is something that suffered pretty bad in this area. I mean, sure there were apartments that you could take the fight to. Take any movie, even something, you know, that didnt really get the highest ratings i can almost guarantee you that it does a better job here than even a lot of triple A games.

And yeah, i do realize that as a multiplayer game sure there is stuff that is way more important like the weapons and whatnot, but just something to keep in mind. If alliance could give us those living, breathing places to fight online, it will have done something that precious few multiplayer games have done.

There are other things in the video that i think really could prove very beneficial to the single player as well, in particular being able to make meaningful choices. And i mean, something that goes beyond you know just choosing what you say (in terms of dialogue.) For example, if you have a shot on an enemy officer or something, do you take it or not? If you do, you run the risk of alerting zillions of nearby enemies and things getting all kinds of batshit crazy. :) However, if you pull off a clean shot, you might get some other benefit like perhaps you could use his uniform to disguise yourself or something. :D Personally hoping for an open world campaign, but hey i like to dream big. :)

I think the companion character kind of relates as many modern military forces fight in squads. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:52 am 
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Yeah, I'll give you the lived-in aspect. I can definitely see that. The problem (one we hope to address in later multiplayer levels) with the general model right now is that network bandwidth has to be highly optimized for state. In other words, you have to communicate the least amount possible about the state of the world that is required to still allow for smooth pvp gameplay, and nothing more. This is why multiplayer levels are usually barren of NPCs, a lot of dynamic entities, etc. BF's destructibility is unbelievably canned for this very reason- robust destruction (good name for a band, btw) would require a LOT of packet flying over the cables, and that kills network performance. This is why multiplayer levels have remained, basically, arenas. We hope to change it soon, but it has to come in gradual steps on account of the tremendous technical hurdles to overcome.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:28 am 
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Im definitely excited for things to come. :) Ill prob chip in a few $$ when i start working. BF4 actually pulled off something pretty cool that i didn't even know was possible.. Elevators in multiplayer! I have long since wondered whether it would be possible to carry something like this over from the single player and to multiplayer. Just imagine the possibilities here. We could have a fully fleshed out high rise buidling with like 30 floors or something to duke it out on! :) Maybe we could even recreate this somewhat well known scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es2uYtSJh-Y

One team could be the security guards and the other two people could be well.. the people trying to get into the building. Would put an entirely new spin on the ages old "diffuse the bomb" mode. Especially if there were multiple ways of approaching the objective (for example taking out the power or doing what they did in the clip) went be beyond the "the bomb is at A/B/C/H/etc" and instead of having everything called out for you, you had to actually figure things out for yourself. Just an idea. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:06 pm 
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I remember playing the medal of honor (the new one who's cover was graced by the biggest badass ever)
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and there was just something about it that i really loved
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2PKQU6H9R4


It didnt feel overly arcadey like call of duty. Getting kills was oh so satisfying :) I dont think any game has ever made firing the m4 so much fun. Kick ass :D

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